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因为百度呑贴,因此开一贴探讨某人对历史记载开脑洞的问题

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事情出自这个帖子:https://tieba.baidu.com/p/7630471938?share=9105&fr=sharewise&see_lz=0&share_from=post&sfc=qqfriend&client_type=2&client_version=12.15.1.0&st=1638963841&unique=76CA42D18BD4495CE7F46BDD59F026A8&red_tag=2769120565

楼主@bdfzbqs 言之凿凿的说根据另外一份文献记载,卡罗尼亚会战是虚构的,就是一场突袭而已,根本没打成会战。这真是看的我天雷滚滚,而其所谓的另一份文献,是门农写的《赫拉克利亚史》23章13节的内容。原文如下:
“When Eretria, Chalcis and the whole of Euboea had gone over to Mithridates, along with other cities, and the Spartans had been defeated, the Romans sent out Sulla against him with a suitable army. 11 On his arrival, Sulla won over some cities which changed sides of their own will, and captured others by force, and he routed a large army from Pontus in battle. He also captured Athens, and the city would have been destroyed, if the senate had not quickly put a stop to Sulla's intentions. 12 There were many skirmishes, in most of which the men of Pontus had the upper hand, and the situation changed as a result of their successes. But the royal troops suffered from a lack of supplies, because they used up what they held recklessly and did not know how to preserve what they had acquired. They would have been in desperate trouble, if Taxiles had not captured Amphipolis, after which the rest of Macedonia went over to his side, and he was able to provide plentiful supplies.
13 Taxiles and Archelaus joined up their armies, so that they had over 60,000 men, and they took up position in the territory of Phocis, awaiting Sulla. Sulla received reinforcements from Lucius Hortensius, who brought more than 6,000 men from Italy, and camped opposite them at a considerable distance. While Archelaus' men were carelessly foraging, Sulla unexpectedly attacked his enemies' camp. He immediately killed the men whom he captured if they were strong, but he placed those from whom he had nothing to fear around the camp and told them to light fires, so as to receive those returning from foraging without giving them any suspicion of what had happened. This turned out as he planned, and Sulla's men won a brilliant victory.”
而这区区两段文字,就是苏拉参加的米特拉达梯战争的全部内容,其简略大家可以看出,这里面确实没有卡罗尼亚会战,然而也没有雅典攻城战和奥科美纳斯会战,按照作者一笔带过的写法,这场战争就是在许多的小冲突和苏拉奇袭阿基劳斯营地中结束的。
但这就很诡异了,按照这里的说法,小冲突还大多是本都人占据上风,怎么突然阿基劳斯就撤出雅典,一路东退,跑到营地里等待苏拉了?怎么一次营地被袭击就让苏拉大获全胜赢了战争了?难不成自知自己非仁义之师所以羞愧至死的?那么是不是这本书使用的材料要优于普鲁塔克和阿庇安?并非如此,门农也是一世纪的人,而且相比普鲁塔克明确提到的苏拉自己的回忆录,这位门农丝毫没有给出出处。所以你用作者时代差不多,毫无出处的简史,去否根据苏拉回忆录撰写的历史?而且这简史内容剥离详细版本后还完全不能自洽。是不是过于脑洞大开了点?原本打算回复在帖子里的,结果打完字被吞了,因此单开一贴,另外由于给出了出处,所以不作任何处罚,但是麻烦下次看wiki百科写帖子之前,看看自己引用的资料,过一过脑子。


IP属地:江苏1楼2021-12-08 20:09回复
    再提一句,卡罗尼亚会战《谋略》也提到过,换言之三个罗马作者提到了。最后谈一谈卡罗尼亚会战的损失情况,本都的损失普鲁塔克给出的是只有1万人逃到卡尔西顿,大量人员被杀,但是没提及具体损失。阿庇安也说只有1万人幸存,但没提及阵亡人员。考虑到日后米特拉达梯拉出一波又一波的大军,这里的幸存者可能只是战后短期聚集起来的,那些损失中绝大部分可能只是失去组织了而已,在战后较长时间段内又被重组了起来,再给古代记载中的数字挤点水,也就不那么夸张了。而罗马人的损失,普鲁塔克提到12人,阿庇安提到13人,这种数据确实不太真实,考虑到出处可能都是苏拉的回忆录或者官方的宣传文件,损失被隐瞒是有可能的,按照以往胜利者损失较轻的情况,这种击溃作战罗马人可能损失了数百人。


    IP属地:江苏3楼2021-12-08 20:19
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      比附权威(还是过时的权威),满地打滚,就是不肯就事论事,不肯审视观点(攀附权威的话,你看看哪个现代史家直接把卡罗尼亚会战否了的)只能送你去小黑屋了。再发现你逼逼赖赖再继续封


      IP属地:江苏来自Android客户端6楼2021-12-08 21:54
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        我是没想到这个作者的书有朝一日能被引进国内。
        我虽然没看过他的书,
        但是以前曾看过的钮先钟所著的《西方战略思想史》一书中
        还是把他作为一个军事思想史上有一定影响力的人物做了介绍。
        维基百科上说,他曾在22岁的时候参加过普法战争,然后就因病退伍了就去大学当了教授。
        从这个短暂的服役情况看可能是一个士兵或者基层军官,也可以看出他主要身份还是文人

        在这个话题下,他的一些战略思想上的成就就不说了,还是讲讲他军事历史学方面的贡献。
        一定程度上,冷吧打脸百万大军党的方法就是他思路的延续:用现代科学方法对过去文献进行分析。


        但是另一方面也要看到,他本身作为军事思想家,其所著的军事史更多还是概况性的通史范畴。
        毕竟不是专门的历史学家,其他细节上的考证就不那么严谨,有着一定的局限性。
        因此在细枝末节的地方上也没必要拿他来诉诸权威。

        最后他和他的著作,本身也是一个充满争议的话题。
        当时职业军人和正统历史学家都都并不看好他的成果。
        然而他本身具有开创性的做法和独到的思想还是极具价值的。
        以后有机会的我话我也会去拜读一下他的著作。
        以上图片内容摘自《西方战略思想史》第六篇第13章 P355-P360 钮先钟著 广西师范大学出版社


        IP属地:上海7楼2021-12-08 22:28
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